mimesere | oh *fandom*

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race

oh fandom

sometimes you make me want to cry. and/or punch people.

but hey! On the other hand, now I totally know who to avoid in fandom! So...that's a plus. *tries to look on the bright side*

(god, it JUST KEEPS GOING and horrifies me more and more).

ETA: the posts in question
In which Teyla and Ronon are white! No, really! - I swear, the more I hear about race relations in, um, England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland/what-have-you, the less likely I am to ever ever go there.

and!

In which the reason there's not more fic about characters of color is because they are not leads! or not hot enough! or interesting enough! Because when they *are*, there's a lot of fic! No, really!

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I swear, the more I hear about race relations in, um, England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland/what-have-you, the less likely I am to ever ever go there.
Well, I personally hope you do come here one day, sveets, so I can take you to First Out and buy you tea, but it really is a somewhat different discussion if you're not American and sometimes things need to be explained. Don't get me wrong, I think people who take the positions you've linked to are pretty fucking misguided, but when faced with an argument that is overwhelmingly US-centric in its points, language and history, misunderstanding is bound to occur. You're going to hate me for this, but I do not necessarily see Hispanic people on telly as non-white unless it is *marked*, unless it is a class thing. We're making an imaginative jump to a US-cultural view (which we all do all the time as we all watch US media), and that imaginative jump may not take us to the same place as a US viewer. If you are Hispanic here in Europe, you are probably from another European country, which is a different kettle of fish entirely, or else you are South American, which is yet another. 'Hispanic' simply doesn't translate except via US media.
God forbid I defend racism and, if I ever do by accident, I hope and expect everyone who cares about me pulls me up sharp, but it's not a simple thing and I do understand why people go off on what seem like silly tangents about the nature of whiteness and nationality over here. As to the original issue about Teyla and Ronon and their roles in AU stories, that is simple and if I could marry

ciderpress (damn her silly heterosexuality!), I would. She's said everything I want to on the subject. Except the part about being Asian, because I'm not and that would be a lie.

I want to come visit you so much! (Really, I keep looking at airfare to London and going, "Hmmmm.")

And I do get that the Race Discussion is almost always framed in terms of American POV which is difficult for people that aren't, er, steeped in it, but I'm just so *frustrated*. And a lot of what frustrated me about

lasultrix's post -- and I'm not assuming she meant it this way, but that's how it *felt* -- was the way she kept saying things like, "Jason Momoa considers himself to be not white and if we can't trust him, who can we trust?" like...wtf? That's AWFULLY NICE OF YOU TO LET HIM SELF-IDENTIFY. And it's not (seriously not) that I think she *meant* it that way, but. Yeah. And so I'm left going, "Wait, wait, but do the people that you are categorizing as being white see *themselves* as white?" because race/ethnicity/etc is such a big, big part of cultural and self identity here that I have a really difficult time imagining that it's not the same for people elsewhere. It feels weird (and by weird I mean creepy) to me to think that I would be considered white when it's not who I am and it hasn't been my experience and the fact that I'm *not* white is actually a big part of how I define myself. It's not *who I am*. And so I read the sentence about how like, is she denying a Latino their identity if she doesn't think of them as not-white and there's a part of me that goes, "Yes! Yes you are!" because...it's *such* a huge deal.

And the thing about the hispanic question is, people from spain? I totally identify as white European. People from central/south america? Totally not white. And a lot of that is based on knowing things like the darker skinned people in central/south america are usually seen as being...less by the lighter skinned people in the same place because the darker skin usually indicates interracial of-Spanish-descent and native.

I don't know. I am rambling and I totally understand that there are misunderstandings because of the cultural differences and I know that I am *hugely* US-centric in the way that I see things and that I am being unfair. But...I *am* frustrated because I'm reading all these posts and comments and stuff and it *hurts*. It hurts to know that this place that I considered a safe space *doesn't think* about me (me me me, it's all about me) or that it when it does think about me, it's in relation to How I Should Just Forgive Them Because They Didn't Mean It or they think about me and how maybe I am being oversensitive and reaction-y and it really hurts to know that fandom (at least the parts I'm familiar with) has been having this conversation semi-annually for at least the last five years and not only has nothing changed, but the anger and frustration levels grow exponentially every time I realize that nothing has changed and that just makes everything worse.

And

ciderpress's post is totally with the awesome.

Also, I totally love you best.

Your Jay-Z icon will be a thing of beauty and joy forever.

Hah. I thought the same of Jennifer Beals. And I totally thought Pete Wentz was biracial white and A/PI of some kind. Which, uh, the biracial part is right! He's just not A/PI for the other half.

Heee. I think I can intellectually understand how people could not see Jason Momoa as being a person of color, 'cause he is awfully pale for a Pacific Islander, but...like, on a gut level, I don't get it. Because I looked at him and went, "Heeeeey, I think he's one of mine! Awesome!" and I am very weirdly protective of all, like, two actors who are A/PI.

Damn our cultural oppression of the world! Damn us to hell!

And well, you know, black characters are just so boring and poorly-developed. If only they had the vast and stunning array of characterization and backstory that a character like John Sheppard has!

I remember the first time the "If there were more interesting COCs, I would write them!" argument was trotted out in front of me and I went *ballistic*. Because it takes a pretty spectacular set of blinders on to dismiss the entire literary and media history of characters of color and to say that *every one of them* is boring.

It makes me insane.

I'd love for one of these oh-so-knowledgeable people to tell *HER* that she's white...

*chuckles*

also, didnt jason momoa just say that he isnt white in his featurette on the season 2 dvd release?

I can't think of any black characters who are as painstakingly developed as Sheppard!

Shirley Bassey is both black AND Welsh, so she is the trump card in any fandom discussion of race. She should be on an icon that says "TRUMP CARD: AUTO-WIN FOR ME" and then people would have no clue what it was about but I'd laugh and THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.

Shirley Bassey, bitchez. SHIRLEY.

...that is the best icon ever, omg.

a white woman made it for me. so there's no way *anyone* can try to convince me it is at all racist because my white friend was OK with it.

I know, right?

And god, those black characters, like, I just don't *get* them, you know? Because they listen to weird music and...stuff. It's much easier to imagine being a 240 year old vampire! Because my life experience is so similar!

*snicker*

I knew she is Welsh! it is one of the things I learned during WelshGate '06.

...omg, you have white friends? I thought that was a myth!

No i konw it sounds totally crazy. But I actually do have white friends. Some of them are my *best friends*!!!!

I say we start a letter-writing campaign to get an episode of Torchwood centred around Shirley in some way.

Word. I'm really worried about writing Doctor Who fic now that the chick in it is black. How am I supposed to know how to write a young woman from modern times with a university education and who'd shag Ten? MARTHA IS NOTHING LIKE ME.

having actually been *in* england? the concept of there being no sort of race issues there-- or that race issues are soooooooooooo different as compared to the us-- is more than a little amusing to me.

*gasp*!

Having white friends must totally mean that you know everything there is to know about race! and whiteness!

Dude, it's SO HARD!

Like, I have problems writing someone like Gunn because, you know, how on earth am I supposed to write a movie-loving comics nerd from Southern California? We have nothing in common!

I think I would actually watch that episode!

Hee. I just...I wonder about it, you know? Like I said to

buddleia's comment, I do wonder if the people that would be considered Of Color in the US who are being classified as white in the UK would agree.

So, I dunno. It is all very fraught.

you betcha! when it comes to white people? I KNOW IT ALL!

*giggling and giggling*

Sometimes I really want to post about double consciousness. Sometimes I think that would just be an exercise in frustration.

double consciousness... meaning the way in which POC have to know so much about white people to survive in a white dominated society, but white people generally never have to bother?

or double consciosness in the classical duboisian sense? you mean, you're going to talk about theories of race that are decades old?

oh, please do! I'll get some popcorn...

Luckily there is still a white guy in it. He beige like me!

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