oh *fandom*

[mimesere]

sometimes you make me want to cry. and/or punch people.

but hey! On the other hand, now I totally know who to avoid in fandom! So...that's a plus. *tries to look on the bright side*

(god, it JUST KEEPS GOING and horrifies me more and more).

ETA: the posts in question
In which Teyla and Ronon are white! No, really! - I swear, the more I hear about race relations in, um, England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland/what-have-you, the less likely I am to ever ever go there.

and!

In which the reason there's not more fic about characters of color is because they are not leads! or not hot enough! or interesting enough! Because when they *are*, there's a lot of fic! No, really!

Comments

[popfantastic.livejournal.com]

In which Teyla and Ronon are white! No, really!

The hell? Do I really want to click on this link?

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

...well. It's an interesting look at how some people in England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales define race!

which is, apparently, that unless you're far-east Asian or of obviously African descent, you are white.

Um. Which is. Yeah. Also, there are some apparently COMPLETELY BLIND people in America. It's fun!

very informative

[popfantastic.livejournal.com]

I have also learned that the root and sole reason people identify their racial and/or ethnic backgrounds are college applications! I can't believe I've lived here so long without realizing this.

[brigid31.livejournal.com]

Was that first post written in some sort of parallel universe. I've been avoiding recent SGA wank (mostly cause I don't follow that show and most of these seem to go like this "This might be racist" "It totally is not and here is why" "Umm, not so much." lather rinse repeat. And also it generally wants to make me yell "Own your shit! You might be a little racist because we live in a racist society and you probably internalized at least a little" but that first post you linked to is majorly bizarre.

I mean race is a social construct but you aren't going to tell me that you just didn't notice. I feel like no matter how many discussions happen people aren't going to learn anything becase they don't actually want to be less racist.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

The first post was written by an Irish fan. So, I am going to chalk up the parallel universe feel to just...weirdly and incredibly vast cultural differences.

What killed me in the comments to that first post are the *Americans* who were like, "I didn't notice! I thought Teyla and Ronon were white!" And for them I just sort of go, "...REALLY?" and don't know what to do.

People are just tan, I guess.

[brigid31.livejournal.com]

I have a friend from Argentina who did say that in South America it would be odd to classify people like Jennifer Beals as black because people aren't socialized to think of light skinned black people as black. So I accept it but that does not excuse Americans making that claim. The sheer amount of things you would have to ignore. The mind boggles.

[juleskicks.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD MAKE IT STOP. *cries a lot*

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

OH GOD IF ONLY I COULD.

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

Gotta stop clicking.

But...yeloson wrote about that escape thing... First, I think it's that fandom has always been about a level of escapism, and a good deal of white escapism involves a world without POC, or POC who go along with the program with a smile. The idea of POC "invading" the fandom and actually participating destroys that fantasy right there...

...What I think it is, is that they can't "escape into" fandom away from us. We're part of fandom too, and fandom is online, ergo... This sends a lot of them into a panic (see the backlash to the girl who played Harry Potter's love interest...) Neither the fantasy of a world without us, or a magical online existence without our voices can exist, and they don't know how to live without privilege, so they lash out.

Mind you, apetslife comments aren't rude so much as apparently heartless. But they're honest, and not as serious as being set on fire.

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

But...I'm still mad I clicked. Oh, God. The...cluelessness. And the blindness. OMG.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

...yeah. There's really not a whole lot to say other than OMG about some stuff.

having actually met rachel luttrell...

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

I'd love for one of these oh-so-knowledgeable people to tell *HER* that she's white...

*chuckles*

also, didnt jason momoa just say that he isnt white in his featurette on the season 2 dvd release?

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

*nod* I just. Hm. apetslife's post bothers me because I feel that it's a disingenuous way of avoiding/justifying the problem of a lack of fic or fan-created media about characters of color. Not necessarily *hers*, but I have heard people say, "I would write characters of color if they weren't all boring!" and it raises my hackles. Because...really? We're fine writing the same old white characters time and time again, but the characters of color are boring? And then, on top of that, there's the notion of a credited cast member being called support and saying that's a reason there's not more fic. When, um, really, I'm pretty sure there's more Lorne/Parrish fic than there is Teyla fic and that's just wrong.

I am very irritated by the whole thing. And growing more irritated by the day! It is a fun feeling.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Lorne/Parrish I will never quite understand.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

*raises hand timidly*

I wasn't initially aware that Ronon's not white, but that's cos he looked a bit pale in some of the early pics I saw.

Re: Britain... I've been told we're more "casually racist" without meaning to be. This is probably true. Visiting Americans may have indeed met a phenomenon where once they're opened their mouth they lose a fair bit in the way of colour and become one of those terrible Yankees who oppress us with their Coca-Cola and their Hollywood movies.


I don't write about black characters because they don't get written about and it would be very wrong to change that. I prefer writing about well-developed white guys who have a total of three lines in as many seasons of telly.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

Heee. I think I can intellectually understand how people could not see Jason Momoa as being a person of color, 'cause he is awfully pale for a Pacific Islander, but...like, on a gut level, I don't get it. Because I looked at him and went, "Heeeeey, I think he's one of mine! Awesome!" and I am very weirdly protective of all, like, two actors who are A/PI.

Damn our cultural oppression of the world! Damn us to hell!

And well, you know, black characters are just so boring and poorly-developed. If only they had the vast and stunning array of characterization and backstory that a character like John Sheppard has!

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

*g* I think the key to the first post is not that there isn't racism in Britain or Ireland, but just that it is configured rather differently than it is in the States. So there are many people (chiefly people who in the States would be called Hispanic) who in Britain would be percieved as being white.

(Queue my confused conversation with someone over whether Groves from PotC was white or not, because yes, he has a sort of olive-skinned Roman/Spanish look to him, and to me Spanish = European = white but tanned, but the person discussing him with me felt he had been deliberately cast because he looked non-white.)

I agree that in the case of Ronon, even in Britain I don't think he would be seen as not Black. However, Ronon looks, to me, more Maori than African-American, which comes with yet a different historical set-up. Not better, of course, but different. And Teyla... I don't know about her. If I saw her walking down the street I *wouldn't* automatically think she was black. I would probably think she was mixed, which is again a different set of issues.

So yes, sometimes there are genuine cases of culture clash going on when you're talking to fans of different cultures. But, having said that, this whole debate has made me realize that I don't tend to write CoC, and think I should do something about that.

As a PotC fan, I've always avoided writing the pirates, because I don't like pirates, but I think I'm going to have to make an exception for Anamaria (who is, in any case, a far better character all around than Elizabeth.) And I'll finally get round to writing that Mike/Vaughan fic I've been wanting to do for ages in 'Ultraviolet.'

[jennyo.livejournal.com]

The only thing that I'd point out is that the original discussion, people actually were saying, "Teyla's not white?" I'd also be one to see her and think, "mixed" after I thought, "hot." And also that you're thinking with much more precision than the discussion in question, which offended me because it seemed like the divisions were "white/black/South Asian" and that's...not really quite true even for Ireland/UK.

I mean, the eyebrow I raise with the Latino/Hispanic issue is that we seem to be talking about some criollo motherfuckahs, because I think there are quite a number of Latino/as that wouldn't pass in the UK or US as "white" and the Spanish-speaking would probably turn the "tanned" ones into people of color in the UK as readily as in the US.

Still...if I heard those folks saying, "I would assume mixed" I would totally not be mad at all, but I don't think that level of racial/ethnic shading is, um, in that conversation. Or why it's vaguely offensive to just group not-black or not-Asian as white.

[norabombay.livejournal.com]

My main goal for this evening, after I finish the great clothing put away project:

I'm making myself a Jay-Z icon, with the tag "Welsh People?". Because I can.

But, wow do people see things differently in different places. And I will confess, that as someone who doesn't watch the L Word, and has only seen flashdance? I kinda thought Jennifer Beals was hispanic. Although it doesn't really matter, as what I actually thought was "God, this is a bad movie. She's pretty, but it's a bad movie".


But I'm surly. And this is only partially related to my discovering last night that there is a 23 year old man in america who is a huge buffy fan, but had never seen Bring it On. And didn't know who Gabrielle Union was. Grr.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

Your Jay-Z icon will be a thing of beauty and joy forever.

Hah. I thought the same of Jennifer Beals. And I totally thought Pete Wentz was biracial white and A/PI of some kind. Which, uh, the biracial part is right! He's just not A/PI for the other half.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Shirley Bassey is both black AND Welsh, so she is the trump card in any fandom discussion of race. She should be on an icon that says "TRUMP CARD: AUTO-WIN FOR ME" and then people would have no clue what it was about but I'd laugh and THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.

Shirley Bassey, bitchez. SHIRLEY.

[buddleia.livejournal.com]

I swear, the more I hear about race relations in, um, England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland/what-have-you, the less likely I am to ever ever go there.
Well, I personally hope you do come here one day, sveets, so I can take you to First Out and buy you tea, but it really is a somewhat different discussion if you're not American and sometimes things need to be explained. Don't get me wrong, I think people who take the positions you've linked to are pretty fucking misguided, but when faced with an argument that is overwhelmingly US-centric in its points, language and history, misunderstanding is bound to occur. You're going to hate me for this, but I do not necessarily see Hispanic people on telly as non-white unless it is *marked*, unless it is a class thing. We're making an imaginative jump to a US-cultural view (which we all do all the time as we all watch US media), and that imaginative jump may not take us to the same place as a US viewer. If you are Hispanic here in Europe, you are probably from another European country, which is a different kettle of fish entirely, or else you are South American, which is yet another. 'Hispanic' simply doesn't translate except via US media.
God forbid I defend racism and, if I ever do by accident, I hope and expect everyone who cares about me pulls me up sharp, but it's not a simple thing and I do understand why people go off on what seem like silly tangents about the nature of whiteness and nationality over here. As to the original issue about Teyla and Ronon and their roles in AU stories, that is simple and if I could marry ciderpress (damn her silly heterosexuality!), I would. She's said everything I want to on the subject. Except the part about being Asian, because I'm not and that would be a lie.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

I want to come visit you so much! (Really, I keep looking at airfare to London and going, "Hmmmm.")

And I do get that the Race Discussion is almost always framed in terms of American POV which is difficult for people that aren't, er, steeped in it, but I'm just so *frustrated*. And a lot of what frustrated me about lasultrix's post -- and I'm not assuming she meant it this way, but that's how it *felt* -- was the way she kept saying things like, "Jason Momoa considers himself to be not white and if we can't trust him, who can we trust?" like...wtf? That's AWFULLY NICE OF YOU TO LET HIM SELF-IDENTIFY. And it's not (seriously not) that I think she *meant* it that way, but. Yeah. And so I'm left going, "Wait, wait, but do the people that you are categorizing as being white see *themselves* as white?" because race/ethnicity/etc is such a big, big part of cultural and self identity here that I have a really difficult time imagining that it's not the same for people elsewhere. It feels weird (and by weird I mean creepy) to me to think that I would be considered white when it's not who I am and it hasn't been my experience and the fact that I'm *not* white is actually a big part of how I define myself. It's not *who I am*. And so I read the sentence about how like, is she denying a Latino their identity if she doesn't think of them as not-white and there's a part of me that goes, "Yes! Yes you are!" because...it's *such* a huge deal.

And the thing about the hispanic question is, people from spain? I totally identify as white European. People from central/south america? Totally not white. And a lot of that is based on knowing things like the darker skinned people in central/south america are usually seen as being...less by the lighter skinned people in the same place because the darker skin usually indicates interracial of-Spanish-descent and native.

I don't know. I am rambling and I totally understand that there are misunderstandings because of the cultural differences and I know that I am *hugely* US-centric in the way that I see things and that I am being unfair. But...I *am* frustrated because I'm reading all these posts and comments and stuff and it *hurts*. It hurts to know that this place that I considered a safe space *doesn't think* about me (me me me, it's all about me) or that it when it does think about me, it's in relation to How I Should Just Forgive Them Because They Didn't Mean It or they think about me and how maybe I am being oversensitive and reaction-y and it really hurts to know that fandom (at least the parts I'm familiar with) has been having this conversation semi-annually for at least the last five years and not only has nothing changed, but the anger and frustration levels grow exponentially every time I realize that nothing has changed and that just makes everything worse.

And ciderpress's post is totally with the awesome.

Also, I totally love you best.

also.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

having actually been *in* england? the concept of there being no sort of race issues there-- or that race issues are soooooooooooo different as compared to the us-- is more than a little amusing to me.

Re: also.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

Hee. I just...I wonder about it, you know? Like I said to buddleia's comment, I do wonder if the people that would be considered Of Color in the US who are being classified as white in the UK would agree.

So, I dunno. It is all very fraught.