oh *fandom*

[mimesere]

sometimes you make me want to cry. and/or punch people.

but hey! On the other hand, now I totally know who to avoid in fandom! So...that's a plus. *tries to look on the bright side*

(god, it JUST KEEPS GOING and horrifies me more and more).

ETA: the posts in question
In which Teyla and Ronon are white! No, really! - I swear, the more I hear about race relations in, um, England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland/what-have-you, the less likely I am to ever ever go there.

and!

In which the reason there's not more fic about characters of color is because they are not leads! or not hot enough! or interesting enough! Because when they *are*, there's a lot of fic! No, really!

Comments

[popfantastic.livejournal.com]

In which Teyla and Ronon are white! No, really!

The hell? Do I really want to click on this link?

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

...well. It's an interesting look at how some people in England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales define race!

which is, apparently, that unless you're far-east Asian or of obviously African descent, you are white.

Um. Which is. Yeah. Also, there are some apparently COMPLETELY BLIND people in America. It's fun!

very informative

[popfantastic.livejournal.com]

I have also learned that the root and sole reason people identify their racial and/or ethnic backgrounds are college applications! I can't believe I've lived here so long without realizing this.

Re: very informative

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

It is good of fandom to teach us these things!

[brigid31.livejournal.com]

Was that first post written in some sort of parallel universe. I've been avoiding recent SGA wank (mostly cause I don't follow that show and most of these seem to go like this "This might be racist" "It totally is not and here is why" "Umm, not so much." lather rinse repeat. And also it generally wants to make me yell "Own your shit! You might be a little racist because we live in a racist society and you probably internalized at least a little" but that first post you linked to is majorly bizarre.

I mean race is a social construct but you aren't going to tell me that you just didn't notice. I feel like no matter how many discussions happen people aren't going to learn anything becase they don't actually want to be less racist.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

The first post was written by an Irish fan. So, I am going to chalk up the parallel universe feel to just...weirdly and incredibly vast cultural differences.

What killed me in the comments to that first post are the *Americans* who were like, "I didn't notice! I thought Teyla and Ronon were white!" And for them I just sort of go, "...REALLY?" and don't know what to do.

People are just tan, I guess.

[juleskicks.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD MAKE IT STOP. *cries a lot*

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

OH GOD IF ONLY I COULD.

Re: very informative

[annaalamode.livejournal.com]

And they only provide that information for, like, statistics. Race isn't social AT ALL.

[brigid31.livejournal.com]

I have a friend from Argentina who did say that in South America it would be odd to classify people like Jennifer Beals as black because people aren't socialized to think of light skinned black people as black. So I accept it but that does not excuse Americans making that claim. The sheer amount of things you would have to ignore. The mind boggles.

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

Gotta stop clicking.

But...yeloson wrote about that escape thing... First, I think it's that fandom has always been about a level of escapism, and a good deal of white escapism involves a world without POC, or POC who go along with the program with a smile. The idea of POC "invading" the fandom and actually participating destroys that fantasy right there...

...What I think it is, is that they can't "escape into" fandom away from us. We're part of fandom too, and fandom is online, ergo... This sends a lot of them into a panic (see the backlash to the girl who played Harry Potter's love interest...) Neither the fantasy of a world without us, or a magical online existence without our voices can exist, and they don't know how to live without privilege, so they lash out.

Mind you, apetslife comments aren't rude so much as apparently heartless. But they're honest, and not as serious as being set on fire.

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

But...I'm still mad I clicked. Oh, God. The...cluelessness. And the blindness. OMG.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

*nod* I just. Hm. apetslife's post bothers me because I feel that it's a disingenuous way of avoiding/justifying the problem of a lack of fic or fan-created media about characters of color. Not necessarily *hers*, but I have heard people say, "I would write characters of color if they weren't all boring!" and it raises my hackles. Because...really? We're fine writing the same old white characters time and time again, but the characters of color are boring? And then, on top of that, there's the notion of a credited cast member being called support and saying that's a reason there's not more fic. When, um, really, I'm pretty sure there's more Lorne/Parrish fic than there is Teyla fic and that's just wrong.

I am very irritated by the whole thing. And growing more irritated by the day! It is a fun feeling.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

...yeah. There's really not a whole lot to say other than OMG about some stuff.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

*raises hand timidly*

I wasn't initially aware that Ronon's not white, but that's cos he looked a bit pale in some of the early pics I saw.

Re: Britain... I've been told we're more "casually racist" without meaning to be. This is probably true. Visiting Americans may have indeed met a phenomenon where once they're opened their mouth they lose a fair bit in the way of colour and become one of those terrible Yankees who oppress us with their Coca-Cola and their Hollywood movies.


I don't write about black characters because they don't get written about and it would be very wrong to change that. I prefer writing about well-developed white guys who have a total of three lines in as many seasons of telly.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Lorne/Parrish I will never quite understand.

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

*g* I think the key to the first post is not that there isn't racism in Britain or Ireland, but just that it is configured rather differently than it is in the States. So there are many people (chiefly people who in the States would be called Hispanic) who in Britain would be percieved as being white.

(Queue my confused conversation with someone over whether Groves from PotC was white or not, because yes, he has a sort of olive-skinned Roman/Spanish look to him, and to me Spanish = European = white but tanned, but the person discussing him with me felt he had been deliberately cast because he looked non-white.)

I agree that in the case of Ronon, even in Britain I don't think he would be seen as not Black. However, Ronon looks, to me, more Maori than African-American, which comes with yet a different historical set-up. Not better, of course, but different. And Teyla... I don't know about her. If I saw her walking down the street I *wouldn't* automatically think she was black. I would probably think she was mixed, which is again a different set of issues.

So yes, sometimes there are genuine cases of culture clash going on when you're talking to fans of different cultures. But, having said that, this whole debate has made me realize that I don't tend to write CoC, and think I should do something about that.

As a PotC fan, I've always avoided writing the pirates, because I don't like pirates, but I think I'm going to have to make an exception for Anamaria (who is, in any case, a far better character all around than Elizabeth.) And I'll finally get round to writing that Mike/Vaughan fic I've been wanting to do for ages in 'Ultraviolet.'

[jennyo.livejournal.com]

The only thing that I'd point out is that the original discussion, people actually were saying, "Teyla's not white?" I'd also be one to see her and think, "mixed" after I thought, "hot." And also that you're thinking with much more precision than the discussion in question, which offended me because it seemed like the divisions were "white/black/South Asian" and that's...not really quite true even for Ireland/UK.

I mean, the eyebrow I raise with the Latino/Hispanic issue is that we seem to be talking about some criollo motherfuckahs, because I think there are quite a number of Latino/as that wouldn't pass in the UK or US as "white" and the Spanish-speaking would probably turn the "tanned" ones into people of color in the UK as readily as in the US.

Still...if I heard those folks saying, "I would assume mixed" I would totally not be mad at all, but I don't think that level of racial/ethnic shading is, um, in that conversation. Or why it's vaguely offensive to just group not-black or not-Asian as white.

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

I get that some black characters, or coc's, will come across as boring. Anti-heroe coc of rare, few and far between. I think much of that has to do with wanting to combat the 'black people=bad'. What I find amusing is that so many non-Americans are, "Race problem? We don't have the race problems. That's America. (Or South Africa) but not us enlightened Europeans. And I flat out think it's bullshit when Australians claim not to have race problems, because, hello. Y'all have "blacks" too. And it's not cute what's been happening down there for, oh, about as long as you white folk has settled.

*sigh*

Anyway...not to pick on apl specifically but that coc=boring is frustrating. And...disingenuous. And yet, that argument (or 'reasoning') is brought forth again and again with such sincerity. Such is privilege. It makes it so that people don't even see what's what.

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

*g* Yes, I agree 'mixed?' definitely comes after 'she's so beautiful!' I'm not actually in SGA fandom, but what I have seen convinces me that I prefer Teyla as a character to Elizabeth (Weir?) by a factor of 100. They should give command of Atlantis to Teyla and then maybe there would be some moral decision making around the place for a change.

Sorry; that was a bit of a digression. But yes, not being in SGA fandom means I've only caught the tail end of these discussions. I totally agree that the idea that there *is* only black, white, and Asian is just, well, ridiculous, and must imply lazy thinking and poor observational skills in the people who hold it.

The Hispanic issue I think comes about simply because Britain has a very different history with Spain than the USA does - so we have no Hispanic/Latino community and no history of prejudice against them. We haven't therefore had to become aware of the fine degrees of difference between criollo and latino and mestizo etc - this is all completely academic stuff to us.

I do agree that some would be considered coloured and some would be considered white, but I'm not sure whether it would depend on language. I suspect that in Britain most Spanish speaking people would be assumed to be Spanish (or of Spanish descent), and therefore white, unless they looked unmistakeably black/native American.

Because this isn't ever something we've had to think about, I think it really is possible for us to look at someone like, I don't know.. Jennifer Lopez? and not doubt for a moment that she's white.

It is a reaction built on ignorance of the specific conditions of racism in the USA, (and I agree that ignorance is not a good thing, and we ought to learn better) but I don't think it's necessarily a simple case of grouping people who are neither black nor Asian as white. It's more a slightly different perception of how to define white, where a certain amount of tan just indicates a Mediterranean white rather than a pasty British/Irish one.

[norabombay.livejournal.com]

My main goal for this evening, after I finish the great clothing put away project:

I'm making myself a Jay-Z icon, with the tag "Welsh People?". Because I can.

But, wow do people see things differently in different places. And I will confess, that as someone who doesn't watch the L Word, and has only seen flashdance? I kinda thought Jennifer Beals was hispanic. Although it doesn't really matter, as what I actually thought was "God, this is a bad movie. She's pretty, but it's a bad movie".


But I'm surly. And this is only partially related to my discovering last night that there is a 23 year old man in america who is a huge buffy fan, but had never seen Bring it On. And didn't know who Gabrielle Union was. Grr.

[luna-argentea.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's necessarily a simple case of grouping people who are neither black nor Asian as white. It's more a slightly different perception of how to define white, where a certain amount of tan just indicates a Mediterranean white rather than a pasty British/Irish one.

Also, I think the ethnic make-up of "white Europeans" is more complex and more fluid than it is sometimes assumed to be. It's not always taken into consideration how many invasions, conquests and migrations there have been during thousands of years of European history. I suppose the only way to be absolutely sure of someone's ethnic make-up is to do a DNA test. However, I would assume that the reason so many Spanish and Portuguese people have dark hair and an olive/"tanned" complexion in comparison with white Northern Europeans has a lot to do with the Moors conquering the Iberian peninsula in the eighth century and occupying it for the following five centuries (and longer in Granada).

Another influence on the Mediterranean is that for more than two centuries the south-east Mediterranean was part of the Ottoman Empire, at the core of which were the Oghuz Turks, originally from Central Asia.

Of course, hundreds of years before any of this, soldiers in the Roman army were from all over the Roman Empire and merchants in the Roman Empire traded throughout it, and dedications to Syrian and North African deities have been found at Hadrian's Wall.

Also, in the eighteenth century there were black people in Britain and northern Europe, who were either freed slaves or their descendants.

There must be many more examples. I find all this really interesting to think about!

[jennyo.livejournal.com]

Okay, but if you turned around and said, "Oh, J.Lo, only in America would you get treated as not-white! Because in Britain, you are white!" she might say, "Okay, so I'm the whitest-looking girl in my family. Look at my aunties. Look at my cousins. I AM NOT WHITE." I don't think Jennifer Lopez would call herself white, even if she's probably from a white/native mix that was higher on the white. And I further don't think she'd exactly be down with "Oh, I don't think of you as not-white!" There's sort of this quiet, "well, doesn't everyone want to be white?" assumption in there, or why not assume "mixed" (which is still 'not white') instead of tanned Mediterranean?

I know that it's a different context and I know you're not going to assume "Puerto Rican" or "Mexican" of the person walking along the street in the UK (I've seen the numbers. Utah is less white than the UK. UTAH), but there is that hint of white privilege in assuming that the tanned person is white, or even wants to be assumed white, unless there's a seriously visible marker, like 'undeniably' non-white features or skin tone, or say, something that marks the person as Middle Eastern.

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

I see what you mean - sort of like the heteronormativity involved in assuming a given person is straight unless they act gay. But on the other hand, I'm very unlikely to turn around and say 'come here so you'll be treated as white' :) I'm not denying that she is a Latina and that that is a vitally important part of her identity which she wouldn't want to part with at any cost.

I'm just saying that in the UK, if you saw someone looking similar to that on the street you would be much more likely to be right if you thought 'French or Spanish exchange student' than if you thought 'mixed'. It would take talking to her to find out for sure. But being part of Europe and with open borders we are simply more likely to see Mediterranean people, and it is equally disrespectful of a person's heritage to assume 'mixed' when they are in fact French (like the fellow in my icon).

But having said all that, I do see what you mean - that the assumption that someone is white because they look white is just as annoying as the assumption that I'm German because I'm blonde and blue eyed. There's nothing wrong with being German, but I'm just not.

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely, there's a hell of a lot of history out there, which is why I don't think it's possible to know what the map of racism is in another culture without at least a serious amount of study, or preferably living there. I have no idea to what extent having Moorish ancestors is seen in Spain as being less Spanish - if at all.

I know that the Greeks and the Turks are bitter enemies, but that seems to be despite the fact that most Greeks will have some Turkish blood. Why - given that's the case - we in Britain would define Greeks as white and Turks as not-white, I don't know. But I don't suppose any racial classification system is exactly based on reason. Which is, again, why the local nuances are so hard to guess when you're looking at them from a different culture.