oh *fandom*

[mimesere]

sometimes you make me want to cry. and/or punch people.

but hey! On the other hand, now I totally know who to avoid in fandom! So...that's a plus. *tries to look on the bright side*

(god, it JUST KEEPS GOING and horrifies me more and more).

ETA: the posts in question
In which Teyla and Ronon are white! No, really! - I swear, the more I hear about race relations in, um, England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland/what-have-you, the less likely I am to ever ever go there.

and!

In which the reason there's not more fic about characters of color is because they are not leads! or not hot enough! or interesting enough! Because when they *are*, there's a lot of fic! No, really!

Comments

[popfantastic.livejournal.com]

In which Teyla and Ronon are white! No, really!

The hell? Do I really want to click on this link?

[brigid31.livejournal.com]

Was that first post written in some sort of parallel universe. I've been avoiding recent SGA wank (mostly cause I don't follow that show and most of these seem to go like this "This might be racist" "It totally is not and here is why" "Umm, not so much." lather rinse repeat. And also it generally wants to make me yell "Own your shit! You might be a little racist because we live in a racist society and you probably internalized at least a little" but that first post you linked to is majorly bizarre.

I mean race is a social construct but you aren't going to tell me that you just didn't notice. I feel like no matter how many discussions happen people aren't going to learn anything becase they don't actually want to be less racist.

[juleskicks.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD MAKE IT STOP. *cries a lot*

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

Gotta stop clicking.

But...yeloson wrote about that escape thing... First, I think it's that fandom has always been about a level of escapism, and a good deal of white escapism involves a world without POC, or POC who go along with the program with a smile. The idea of POC "invading" the fandom and actually participating destroys that fantasy right there...

...What I think it is, is that they can't "escape into" fandom away from us. We're part of fandom too, and fandom is online, ergo... This sends a lot of them into a panic (see the backlash to the girl who played Harry Potter's love interest...) Neither the fantasy of a world without us, or a magical online existence without our voices can exist, and they don't know how to live without privilege, so they lash out.

Mind you, apetslife comments aren't rude so much as apparently heartless. But they're honest, and not as serious as being set on fire.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

*raises hand timidly*

I wasn't initially aware that Ronon's not white, but that's cos he looked a bit pale in some of the early pics I saw.

Re: Britain... I've been told we're more "casually racist" without meaning to be. This is probably true. Visiting Americans may have indeed met a phenomenon where once they're opened their mouth they lose a fair bit in the way of colour and become one of those terrible Yankees who oppress us with their Coca-Cola and their Hollywood movies.


I don't write about black characters because they don't get written about and it would be very wrong to change that. I prefer writing about well-developed white guys who have a total of three lines in as many seasons of telly.

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

*g* I think the key to the first post is not that there isn't racism in Britain or Ireland, but just that it is configured rather differently than it is in the States. So there are many people (chiefly people who in the States would be called Hispanic) who in Britain would be percieved as being white.

(Queue my confused conversation with someone over whether Groves from PotC was white or not, because yes, he has a sort of olive-skinned Roman/Spanish look to him, and to me Spanish = European = white but tanned, but the person discussing him with me felt he had been deliberately cast because he looked non-white.)

I agree that in the case of Ronon, even in Britain I don't think he would be seen as not Black. However, Ronon looks, to me, more Maori than African-American, which comes with yet a different historical set-up. Not better, of course, but different. And Teyla... I don't know about her. If I saw her walking down the street I *wouldn't* automatically think she was black. I would probably think she was mixed, which is again a different set of issues.

So yes, sometimes there are genuine cases of culture clash going on when you're talking to fans of different cultures. But, having said that, this whole debate has made me realize that I don't tend to write CoC, and think I should do something about that.

As a PotC fan, I've always avoided writing the pirates, because I don't like pirates, but I think I'm going to have to make an exception for Anamaria (who is, in any case, a far better character all around than Elizabeth.) And I'll finally get round to writing that Mike/Vaughan fic I've been wanting to do for ages in 'Ultraviolet.'

[norabombay.livejournal.com]

My main goal for this evening, after I finish the great clothing put away project:

I'm making myself a Jay-Z icon, with the tag "Welsh People?". Because I can.

But, wow do people see things differently in different places. And I will confess, that as someone who doesn't watch the L Word, and has only seen flashdance? I kinda thought Jennifer Beals was hispanic. Although it doesn't really matter, as what I actually thought was "God, this is a bad movie. She's pretty, but it's a bad movie".


But I'm surly. And this is only partially related to my discovering last night that there is a 23 year old man in america who is a huge buffy fan, but had never seen Bring it On. And didn't know who Gabrielle Union was. Grr.

[buddleia.livejournal.com]

I swear, the more I hear about race relations in, um, England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland/what-have-you, the less likely I am to ever ever go there.
Well, I personally hope you do come here one day, sveets, so I can take you to First Out and buy you tea, but it really is a somewhat different discussion if you're not American and sometimes things need to be explained. Don't get me wrong, I think people who take the positions you've linked to are pretty fucking misguided, but when faced with an argument that is overwhelmingly US-centric in its points, language and history, misunderstanding is bound to occur. You're going to hate me for this, but I do not necessarily see Hispanic people on telly as non-white unless it is *marked*, unless it is a class thing. We're making an imaginative jump to a US-cultural view (which we all do all the time as we all watch US media), and that imaginative jump may not take us to the same place as a US viewer. If you are Hispanic here in Europe, you are probably from another European country, which is a different kettle of fish entirely, or else you are South American, which is yet another. 'Hispanic' simply doesn't translate except via US media.
God forbid I defend racism and, if I ever do by accident, I hope and expect everyone who cares about me pulls me up sharp, but it's not a simple thing and I do understand why people go off on what seem like silly tangents about the nature of whiteness and nationality over here. As to the original issue about Teyla and Ronon and their roles in AU stories, that is simple and if I could marry ciderpress (damn her silly heterosexuality!), I would. She's said everything I want to on the subject. Except the part about being Asian, because I'm not and that would be a lie.

also.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

having actually been *in* england? the concept of there being no sort of race issues there-- or that race issues are soooooooooooo different as compared to the us-- is more than a little amusing to me.