oh *fandom*

[mimesere]

sometimes you make me want to cry. and/or punch people.

but hey! On the other hand, now I totally know who to avoid in fandom! So...that's a plus. *tries to look on the bright side*

(god, it JUST KEEPS GOING and horrifies me more and more).

ETA: the posts in question
In which Teyla and Ronon are white! No, really! - I swear, the more I hear about race relations in, um, England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland/what-have-you, the less likely I am to ever ever go there.

and!

In which the reason there's not more fic about characters of color is because they are not leads! or not hot enough! or interesting enough! Because when they *are*, there's a lot of fic! No, really!

Comments

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

*g* I think the key to the first post is not that there isn't racism in Britain or Ireland, but just that it is configured rather differently than it is in the States. So there are many people (chiefly people who in the States would be called Hispanic) who in Britain would be percieved as being white.

(Queue my confused conversation with someone over whether Groves from PotC was white or not, because yes, he has a sort of olive-skinned Roman/Spanish look to him, and to me Spanish = European = white but tanned, but the person discussing him with me felt he had been deliberately cast because he looked non-white.)

I agree that in the case of Ronon, even in Britain I don't think he would be seen as not Black. However, Ronon looks, to me, more Maori than African-American, which comes with yet a different historical set-up. Not better, of course, but different. And Teyla... I don't know about her. If I saw her walking down the street I *wouldn't* automatically think she was black. I would probably think she was mixed, which is again a different set of issues.

So yes, sometimes there are genuine cases of culture clash going on when you're talking to fans of different cultures. But, having said that, this whole debate has made me realize that I don't tend to write CoC, and think I should do something about that.

As a PotC fan, I've always avoided writing the pirates, because I don't like pirates, but I think I'm going to have to make an exception for Anamaria (who is, in any case, a far better character all around than Elizabeth.) And I'll finally get round to writing that Mike/Vaughan fic I've been wanting to do for ages in 'Ultraviolet.'

[jennyo.livejournal.com]

The only thing that I'd point out is that the original discussion, people actually were saying, "Teyla's not white?" I'd also be one to see her and think, "mixed" after I thought, "hot." And also that you're thinking with much more precision than the discussion in question, which offended me because it seemed like the divisions were "white/black/South Asian" and that's...not really quite true even for Ireland/UK.

I mean, the eyebrow I raise with the Latino/Hispanic issue is that we seem to be talking about some criollo motherfuckahs, because I think there are quite a number of Latino/as that wouldn't pass in the UK or US as "white" and the Spanish-speaking would probably turn the "tanned" ones into people of color in the UK as readily as in the US.

Still...if I heard those folks saying, "I would assume mixed" I would totally not be mad at all, but I don't think that level of racial/ethnic shading is, um, in that conversation. Or why it's vaguely offensive to just group not-black or not-Asian as white.

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

*g* Yes, I agree 'mixed?' definitely comes after 'she's so beautiful!' I'm not actually in SGA fandom, but what I have seen convinces me that I prefer Teyla as a character to Elizabeth (Weir?) by a factor of 100. They should give command of Atlantis to Teyla and then maybe there would be some moral decision making around the place for a change.

Sorry; that was a bit of a digression. But yes, not being in SGA fandom means I've only caught the tail end of these discussions. I totally agree that the idea that there *is* only black, white, and Asian is just, well, ridiculous, and must imply lazy thinking and poor observational skills in the people who hold it.

The Hispanic issue I think comes about simply because Britain has a very different history with Spain than the USA does - so we have no Hispanic/Latino community and no history of prejudice against them. We haven't therefore had to become aware of the fine degrees of difference between criollo and latino and mestizo etc - this is all completely academic stuff to us.

I do agree that some would be considered coloured and some would be considered white, but I'm not sure whether it would depend on language. I suspect that in Britain most Spanish speaking people would be assumed to be Spanish (or of Spanish descent), and therefore white, unless they looked unmistakeably black/native American.

Because this isn't ever something we've had to think about, I think it really is possible for us to look at someone like, I don't know.. Jennifer Lopez? and not doubt for a moment that she's white.

It is a reaction built on ignorance of the specific conditions of racism in the USA, (and I agree that ignorance is not a good thing, and we ought to learn better) but I don't think it's necessarily a simple case of grouping people who are neither black nor Asian as white. It's more a slightly different perception of how to define white, where a certain amount of tan just indicates a Mediterranean white rather than a pasty British/Irish one.

[luna-argentea.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's necessarily a simple case of grouping people who are neither black nor Asian as white. It's more a slightly different perception of how to define white, where a certain amount of tan just indicates a Mediterranean white rather than a pasty British/Irish one.

Also, I think the ethnic make-up of "white Europeans" is more complex and more fluid than it is sometimes assumed to be. It's not always taken into consideration how many invasions, conquests and migrations there have been during thousands of years of European history. I suppose the only way to be absolutely sure of someone's ethnic make-up is to do a DNA test. However, I would assume that the reason so many Spanish and Portuguese people have dark hair and an olive/"tanned" complexion in comparison with white Northern Europeans has a lot to do with the Moors conquering the Iberian peninsula in the eighth century and occupying it for the following five centuries (and longer in Granada).

Another influence on the Mediterranean is that for more than two centuries the south-east Mediterranean was part of the Ottoman Empire, at the core of which were the Oghuz Turks, originally from Central Asia.

Of course, hundreds of years before any of this, soldiers in the Roman army were from all over the Roman Empire and merchants in the Roman Empire traded throughout it, and dedications to Syrian and North African deities have been found at Hadrian's Wall.

Also, in the eighteenth century there were black people in Britain and northern Europe, who were either freed slaves or their descendants.

There must be many more examples. I find all this really interesting to think about!

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely, there's a hell of a lot of history out there, which is why I don't think it's possible to know what the map of racism is in another culture without at least a serious amount of study, or preferably living there. I have no idea to what extent having Moorish ancestors is seen in Spain as being less Spanish - if at all.

I know that the Greeks and the Turks are bitter enemies, but that seems to be despite the fact that most Greeks will have some Turkish blood. Why - given that's the case - we in Britain would define Greeks as white and Turks as not-white, I don't know. But I don't suppose any racial classification system is exactly based on reason. Which is, again, why the local nuances are so hard to guess when you're looking at them from a different culture.

[jennyo.livejournal.com]

Okay, but if you turned around and said, "Oh, J.Lo, only in America would you get treated as not-white! Because in Britain, you are white!" she might say, "Okay, so I'm the whitest-looking girl in my family. Look at my aunties. Look at my cousins. I AM NOT WHITE." I don't think Jennifer Lopez would call herself white, even if she's probably from a white/native mix that was higher on the white. And I further don't think she'd exactly be down with "Oh, I don't think of you as not-white!" There's sort of this quiet, "well, doesn't everyone want to be white?" assumption in there, or why not assume "mixed" (which is still 'not white') instead of tanned Mediterranean?

I know that it's a different context and I know you're not going to assume "Puerto Rican" or "Mexican" of the person walking along the street in the UK (I've seen the numbers. Utah is less white than the UK. UTAH), but there is that hint of white privilege in assuming that the tanned person is white, or even wants to be assumed white, unless there's a seriously visible marker, like 'undeniably' non-white features or skin tone, or say, something that marks the person as Middle Eastern.

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

I see what you mean - sort of like the heteronormativity involved in assuming a given person is straight unless they act gay. But on the other hand, I'm very unlikely to turn around and say 'come here so you'll be treated as white' :) I'm not denying that she is a Latina and that that is a vitally important part of her identity which she wouldn't want to part with at any cost.

I'm just saying that in the UK, if you saw someone looking similar to that on the street you would be much more likely to be right if you thought 'French or Spanish exchange student' than if you thought 'mixed'. It would take talking to her to find out for sure. But being part of Europe and with open borders we are simply more likely to see Mediterranean people, and it is equally disrespectful of a person's heritage to assume 'mixed' when they are in fact French (like the fellow in my icon).

But having said all that, I do see what you mean - that the assumption that someone is white because they look white is just as annoying as the assumption that I'm German because I'm blonde and blue eyed. There's nothing wrong with being German, but I'm just not.